GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

[Shabbaman]

I have a problem: my system isn't booting. I've experienced some problems over the last few months which I thought were connected to my harddisk:

-system hangs occasionally when showing BIOS messages, at the moment the HD is accessed to start windows
-occasional system crashes during gaming, screen turns off, sounds continue for a few seconds
-windows turns off the computer. I thought this was some power saving setting, so I turned all that features off but that didn't change anything.

Since yesterday I have encountered a new symptom, and this one is quite disturbing: the computer won't boot at all. The fans are turned on and the HD light is blinking (like an orange traffic light). However, after some time (increasingly, so it seems, it's up to 10 minutes now) the system does boot. Pretty weird.

I think it's either the motherboard or the power supply that's broken down. Is there any way to verify this? One more thing: I'd rather not reboot the thing, as it's working now.

Some time ago I've run memtest, which turned up no problems. I've also run Seatools for windows, which failed at the short and long drive self tests but passed the other tests.

My system:


Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 (S775, 2x2.13GHz, 4MB, 1066MHz FSB, Boxed)
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3, P965 (ATX, PCI-e, Sound, LAN, SATA II, RAID)
EVGA 512-P3-N866-TR GeForce 9600 GT SC 512 MB GDDR3
Kingston 2GB DDR2 (2x1GB) PC5300 667Mhz CL5 Dual Channel Kit (KVR667D2N5K2⁄2G)
Seagate 320GB SATA II 7200RPM 16MB Barracuda 7200.10 (ST3320620AS)
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro (Socket 775)
Zalman ZM400B-APS 400W

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Hi Shabba,

I still think you need to check your drive with the latest version of Seatools for Windows (V1.1.1.0)
SeaTools Desktop Usage Instructions | Seagate

and Run the Short DST for starters, noting any error messages. ie will it run the test, or does the test fail and if so what is the error?

Edit:
Are you running XP or Vista?

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Both the long and short DST fail. The short generic passes. I've found the log :)

Short DST - Started 11-4-2009 21:46:16
Short DST - FAIL 11-4-2009 21:46:16
Sense Key: 0x00 Sense Code: 0x00 Sense Qual: 0x00 FRU: 0x00
Long DST - Started 11-4-2009 21:46:26
Long DST - FAIL 11-4-2009 21:46:26
Sense Key: 0x00 Sense Code: 0x00 Sense Qual: 0x00 FRU: 0x00
Short Generic - Started 11-4-2009 21:46:37
Short Generic - Pass 11-4-2009 21:48:30
Short DST - Started 11-4-2009 21:48:43
Short DST - FAIL 11-4-2009 21:48:43
Sense Key: 0x00 Sense Code: 0x00 Sense Qual: 0x00 FRU: 0x00
Short DST - Started 11-4-2009 21:49:21
Short DST - FAIL 11-4-2009 21:49:21
Sense Key: 0x00 Sense Code: 0x00 Sense Qual: 0x00 FRU: 0x00

It doesn't mean a thing to me though. Running Vista home 32 bit btw.

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Is this with the latest version of SeaTools for Windows?

I tend to think that as the generic tests are ok, then the drive probably is. The DST Error codes look odd, almost as if the seatools software is querying an aspect of the drive that isn't supported on your model of drive.

What you could try now is to download Hwmonitor CPUID and see what your voltages are.
Hwmonitor has a high/low monitor, so after say you have played a game (say TF2) you can see how far your 12volt line in particular dropped.
By playing a 3dgame, it's also loading the system in a similiar way to when your PC starts up.
So check out your voltages... 12, 5 & 3.3volts

Also you could use Vista's built in Memory Diagnostic too.

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

I used an older version of seatools, but these tests I did with the latest version. Your reasoning was the same as mine: if the longer tests work, the DST failures might not mean anything. SMART test is "unavailable" btw. I think it's enabled in the bios, but I'm not sure about that.

I just checked the power with CPUID:



The 5V seems low if it should actually be 5V. If it were to be a power supply problem I wouldn't be surprised, the thing is 4 years old. I would be complaining in the wrong forum then though ;)

EDIT: also, drive enquiry crashes the program.

EDIT2: after playing some minutes of tf2 the 12v dropped to 11.90v, the core, ddr and 3.3 all dropped by 0.01v.

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Your 5volt rail at 4.89v and 12volt rail at 11.90v are perfectly acceptable. The standard is +/- 5% for those two rails anyway and you are well within them.

You should really check your ram now with either:-

1) Memtest V2.11 Memtest86+ - Advanced Memory Diagnostic Tool
2) Vista memory diagnostics.*

* To access Vista memory diagnostics the PC will need to reboot into the program - see below.

Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Memory diagnostics tool

The Vista Memory Diagnostics has 3 modes:
a) Basic
b) Standard
c) Extended

Basic is a very quick test <5 minutes
Standard is the default <15minutes
Extended <4Hours!

Upon auto-reboot/windows starting after test completion, results will be displayed in a taskbar window. If you miss it, you can find the results in the Event logs.

Check in your Bios too in the M.I.T. section (if you have it) that "Performance Enhance" is set to STANDARD

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

I'll check the memory. One more thing I just stumbled upon: I've used a 20 -> 24 pin converter for the motherboard connector.

EDIT: I've performed the standard test with vista's memory diagnotics tool, no errors.

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Ideally you could do with running either Memtest or Vista's Extended test.

However, does this problem happen mainly when you Power up from COLD rather than if you reboot the PC?

I just checked your PSU, can you confirm this is the model:-
::: Zalman, leading the world of Quiet Computing Solutions :::

The 12volt rail on this PSU is rated at an absolute max of 19.5amps, which is a little on the low side for modern PSU's. Although your system is fairly frugal, the PSU's capacity will reduce over time. You may be seeing the results of this now.

I'm not sure why yo are using a 20-24pin adapter, unless you needed to extend the power cable?

According to the Zalman diagram, there is the 20pin and 4 pin (12v) ATX connectors available, ie the two your motherboard requires.

Edit:-

Looking at both the EVGA and BFG sites, both recommend a PSU with a 12volt capacity of between 18-28amps for their various 9600gt models. Now your PSU says a max of 18amps on the 12volt line with a peak possibility of upto 19.5 amps. Because of the nature of the problem, ie happening as the PC has got older (and at startup), i would take a look at the PSU, as it may have been Just up to the job when it was brand new and now through age it's capacity has decreased.

Ideally you could do with just trying another PSU (for fault finding), ie, something with at least 25-30amps capacity on its 12volt line.

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

That's the power supply I have indeed. I used the 24 pins converter because the motherboard has a 24 pin connector.

I think the problems only occur when I'm powering up "cold". I can leave the computer on as long as I want to without any problem.

I'll run the extended memory test tonight. Memtest is a little bit problematic, as I haven't installed a burner yet and I don't have a floppy drive. I do have another HD now (the old one was almost full anyway), does it still make sense to check if that's the problem? Would a poor power supply explain why the HD DST tests fail?

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

I see what you mean about the adapter, I assumed that the Zalman had a 24pin atx plug - but as it's meets the older standard it only uses a 20 pin plug.

As far as Seatools goes, i think it's possible that the software might be a bit buggy rather than it throwing up an HD error due to the PSU.
I would suggest that you use Hitachi's Drive Fitness software or Seagate's Seatools for Dos, but either way you need to burn the ISO image.

The main problem is, that PSU was designed with the greatest capacity being on the 3.3 & 5volt lines, which used to be the norm for the earlier AMD palomino chips, where the CPU voltage (VRM) was derived from the 5 volt line.
These days the CPU Voltage is derived from the 12volt line, so the emphasis has shifted away from both the 3.3 & 5 volt lines.
So where an older 400watt PSU might of had a capacity of 18amps on its 12 volt line (max), a modern day 400watt PSU could have around 30amps available on its 12volt line. For example:- Welcome to Corsair :: CX Power Supplies

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Yup, I got that much so that's why I brought it up. But is there a way to test if the 12v doesn't give enough juice?

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Yup, I got that much so that's why I brought it up. But is there a way to test if the 12v doesn't give enough juice?

There are a number of ways, but it's not that easy for the consumer to check.
Even if you used a multimeter and monitored the 12volt line on startup, the meter may not show, nor might you be able to see a "dip" or "dips" during that period as they would only last for say for fractions of seconds. These dips though may be enough to cause the problems you are facing especially during start up when the 12volt rail/line is put above normal stress/loading.

Seeing that the RAM seems error free, you can start to narrow things down.

Personally I would want to try another PSU, mainly because the type of PSU you have doesn't meet the ATX standard required (ie emphasis on the 12volt rail) and as such you've been cutting it fine. Now that all the components are ageing, PSU and Motherboard wise, you may have found yourself at that threshold point, where the PSU will "hold up" when the PC is running a 2d windows desktop, but will error occasionally during a 3dgame (extra 12volt loading ie from graphics card) and/or at Cold Startup, when things like the Hard Drive will take 2-3x their normal consumption (12volt rail) during their spin-up phase - that alone can equate to 2.5amps per drive.


You could try just out of interest running this X3 TC Rolling Demo Benchmark whilst running HWmonitor too.


This will load up the graphics card, which inturn will draw more current from the 12volt rail. It will be interesting to see if the PC cuts out. Nevertheless a Cold Start puts another set of stresses on the PC and components, so the graphics test may not prove a point at all.

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Running that demo doesn't have a noticeable effect. It does look nice though, a lot like Babylon 5 ;)

I'll try another harddisk, otherwise I think there's not much to do besides getting me another power supply :'(

[Shabbaman]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

Minor update:

I've installed a new HD. While installing I found that the motherboard has two different types of SATA ports. With my uber pro skill I assumed that one of them had to be the "main" HD, but the manual says that they're controlled by two different chipsets.

So, I installed both the old and the new HD to the other chipset, and behold: SMART test available, both pass. Even the old HD passes for the DST, although it takes forever to complete.

I'm curious if this solves the problem, but I think it does point to the motherboard as the cause of the problem. Could it be a firmware problem or something?

If the problem persists (most likely, I'm not a person with a lot of luck) I'll clone the old HD onto the new one and take the old one out.

[VorLonUK]

Re: GA-965P-DS3: system not booting

The 4 x Yellow Sata Ports are connected to the Intel ICH8 Controller (recommended) and the 2 x Purple Sata Ports are connected to the Gigabyte sataII controller which usually is a Jmicron chip Product

Usually both types of controller are supported with modern OS's by default, but both do have updated/uprated drivers for advanced functions, such as AHCI/Raid etc.

If you were using the Purple ports before and also had NOT installed the Jmicron (GB sata II) controller software from either a) Jmicron or b) from the GB motherboard CD (or Gigabyte website) then some of that controllers functions might not of been supported.

I still don't think that's the cause of your problems though.