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**profJim** · 06-13-2009, 05:17 AM

Re: Heat challenge

1) There's a heated debate (pun intended) about the the benefits of positive versus negative air flow into/out of a computer case. You can try different setups where you have more air blowing into your case versus more air exhausted from your case to see if one setup is better than the other.

2) Buy higher speed 200mm fans for more airflow and speed, cost $18 - $30 each.

3) Buy additional 140mm higher speed fans for more air flow, cost $10 - $20 each.

4) Use a $10 - $15 120 volt A.C. 10" - 12" fan to blow additional air into the front or side panel of your case. This is good for a couple of degrees F.

5) Put your complete case inside a used college dorm room sized refrigerator. This is the "coolest" solution.

6) Spend your summers in the western (coastal) side of the Cascade mountains in the Pacific Northwest, where the temperatures are in the 70's or 80's for all but three or four days in the summer.

7) Upgrade your cpu heatsink/fan to a top tier solution, such as the TRUE heatsink with a Noctua fan.

**OldGeek** · 06-13-2009, 06:07 AM

Re: Heat challenge

1. Have thought about that case air flow. Currently pushing nearly equal air in to air out. Physics... does it apply to computers?... would tell me the exhaust fans are where they should be (top/back), input front down and unrestricted flow over cooling surfaces is ideal. Now the other side, if you push air too fast it doesn't stay long enough to pick up heat...going out on debatable limb there.

200mm fans? Can't find any but what Cooler master makes. I moved the 200mm from the top of the case to the windowed side and replaced with 2 120mm fans from old Antec 900. They are pushing some serious air (and heat). Maybe get rid of both 200mm fans and go high CFM/low noise 120mm quality fans? Suggestions on make/model? One thing about this case, you have a large number of fan size/placement options and wires are nearly invisible, another virtue of this case. Do I want to give up sound for CFM? Dang that Antec was noisy.

2. Am using the largest fans designed for the case...can replace with high grade quiet fans? Oxymoron? Adding the optional 140mm fan to the bottom which allows tip to positive/negative case pressure. Since the tip wouldn't be of a great magnitude, might work.

3.Thermaltake CL-W0121 2U Drive Bay Water Cooling System? Concern is CPU is cool everything else boils. Maybe not. The price is in the ballpark for me.

4. Another requirement. Any mods inside the case are open for discussion, outside...no way.

5. Change address? It will be a couple years yet but either the south central California area near Sequoia National Park or Hawaii (bet is Hawaii). Had a timeshare in Hawaii before the divorce...didn't get it...bummer...lesson: you get what you pay your lawyer. I love the PNW but the rain and clouds is cause for massive depression. SF would be OK. Lived there, love the temps, didn't mind the constant wind, but when it rained oh my. An then there's the BIG ONE. Think any HDD's will crash?

6. Am very much leaning toward starting with better fans all around the case followed by water on the CPU. An air solution just isn't going to do the job IMO.

7. Not hiding the case in a fridge...sorry it is my humble showcase.

These are my initial reactions to profJim for which I am deeply appreciative. Other ideas? Feel free to refute my assertions.

**gampamu** · 06-13-2009, 07:07 AM

Re: Heat challenge

Well, the difference between 72F and 80F is only about 5C. Does it really make that much difference in your system temperatures?

**grishkafool** · 06-13-2009, 09:48 AM

Re: Heat challenge

buy some 3.5 to 5.25 bay adadpter frames and move your HDDs to the 5.25 bays, that will let the front fan pull unrestricted air in.

Although, looking at your case, it looks like it has plenty of air flow. And like gampamu said, you aren't going to reap much benefit from more air.

7. Not hiding the case in a fridge...sorry it is my humble showcase

There are hundreds of posts about this. It wouldn't work anyway. A fridge can not keep a CPU cool. Now a walk in cooler could....

Liquid.

**kick** · 06-13-2009, 03:54 PM

Re: Heat challenge

Approx 26C 80F isnt amazingly warm ambient /room temp.
It feels warm sure .but ive done full testing at 25C on my sig settings and the pc works ok.
Admittedly I wouldnt like it everyday or the pc either.Comfy room temp for most people is supposed to be 18-23C 65-74F approx.

Venturi effect )( has been experimented with but you need a lot of "sucking" and a v large volume of air to get the cooling effect .
Most fan frames have the )( x section anyway.

Its the immediacy of water cooling on the hot spot that makes it so usefull,but unless you cool the "refrigerant" water or whatever it is resevoir your still bound by the room temp.

I think there are some venturi "blow systems" using like a 25" fan and suitable ducting but needing a streamlined case of small interior dimensions and almost no back panel just a large hole for exhaust.

Phase cooling etc i dont like the idea of condensation and then heat on vapour laden air :0

I think your room temps arent that extreme ,pc cases are just boxes really, and there is also the consideration of how much "crud" is in the air.
My pc has no open "crud" slots, no optical disc slots(removable cover),floppy slots or unfiltered front/underneath ventilation slots.
rear/top ventilation is unfiltered for 3X 80 mm fans and the psu exit obviously :0.Unused mbrd input sockets at the rear are all blanked off with insulating tape as are any "holes" at the rear which dont have a fan blowing out thru them.
I use either the mbrd packing sponge or cooker hood ventilation fibre to filter the incoming air.

Yeh that also increases case interior temps but its preferable to having to clean the pc fan blades etc every week.
Perhaps you have very good a/c that changes n filters the air regularly.
If so you might be able to run the pc "cover off" and drop 6-10F.

Edit : My sig with the temperatures below..I didnt change the room temp recently Ive been using that sig for a couple of weeks now(you could add 1-2C if I was running at 500 fsb)
Situation: room temp right now is 22C .testing using 25 ambient average was done over a couple of v warm days with room temp on 2 different thermometers..one close to the pc one further away reading between 24-27C.
Room is in the attic area with heat insulation material in the roof..ie even if the outside temp is like 23-24 the room heats up like a .. well gets v hot ;0
Idle temps average over 4 cores right now =41C

**OldGeek** · 06-14-2009, 01:01 AM

Re: Heat challenge

Very insightful all. I liked the Thermaltake UNTIL I noticed that there was no real effort to vent the hot air outside of the case. Big minus.

As to moving the HDDs, don't see the need to move them, this case has PLENTY of room between drives, one of the considerations for its purchase. All the fans, save the exhaust have dust filters of which I am ambivalent. There is SO much dust in the desert that they are prone to a constant need for cleaning. Getting good fans and compressed air cans might serve me better. Why am I so anal about the temps? My system runs an average of 17 hours a day 7 days a week. Due to my life circumstances, my computer takes all my time.

I do see an opportunity for a SSD of 32GB for my Flight Simulator. It is at least 80% reading and perhaps higher. Might save a degree or two on temps there.

Also think the EIST function is good for a degree maybe two. No need for the 3.4 or 3.6GHz when I don't need it. However, when I need it, I really need it.

A liquid self contained cooler that has caught my eye and wallet is the CoolIT Domino A.L.C. It may not do as much as the better air coolers, but it does blast the heated air out the back 120mm fan ergo out of the case, add three fan settings...the medium seems good and quiet. I like that and the ridiculous price of $80. Am not wild about the pre-applied thermal compound...which I know can be removed and replaced with an Arctic something...I've used Silver for years. Mixed reviews on the ceramic Arctic or so I've read. Maybe I'm uneducated on the proper type based on its planned use.

I believe 5C is 5C so with good air flow via powerful, relatively quiet fans and some water on the CPU might be the ticket. Yes, I do some folding@home so do occasionally crank all the cores. Have to think about the dust filters. Again what would you recommend for good fans? Say from $15 to $30?

Do want to finish this and get back to serious mucking with operating systems, a bit of C code and flight simulator all while mastering Windows 7..never used Vista, instead XP Pro x32 and x64.

Final thoughts. I have the core of a plan, looking for areas overlooked.

To badly paraphrase the late Senator Everett Dirksen...a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you're talking real money. That's how I feel about each degree that I can remove from my system.

**Psycho101** · 06-14-2009, 10:18 AM

Re: Heat challenge

The CoolIt Domino sucks monkey b*lls big time. Many many air coolers beat it, and it's extremelt noisy on high. There's no way of changing the fan either. One review site went through three review samples because the barbs on the radiator, where the pipes connect kept snapping, no matter how gentle they were with it.

If you can fit two 120mm fans on the top of your case, you have room to mount a radiator there instead. Go for a water cooling kit, not an all in one jobbie. You'll save up to $100, but you'll be disappointed. A quality 240 rad, some 3/8" or 1/2" piping depending on what fittings are on the components, a decent pump (**Hi flow**), block and res can be had for $300 or so. Swiftech make some nice kit. Black Ice radiators are great too. If you want a little silence get a radiator with a less dense fin array, they react better to lower CFM fans.

Save any money you were going to spend on fans and put it towards the water cooling. As soon as you fit it, you'll be eliminating onw of the major sources of heat from the case.

Water cooling is limited by air temps to some degree, but water has a much higher affinity for absorbing and giving up heat than air does. In the desert, I'm sure a water cooled car would be pretty much ok. I'd bet if you drove an air cooled Porche arround for a bit it'd soon start to have problems.

Edit** A cheap ish all in one that actually works would be something like http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showpr...-029-SW&tool=3 but if you have the cash, going for a high flow pump and seoperate res, with a custom block will work best.

**gampamu** · 06-14-2009, 05:09 PM

Re: Heat challenge

I agree with Psycho101 regarding the quality and performance of the CoolIt Domino. High end air cooler such as the TRUE would be a better choice if better CPU cooling is what you are after. As I said earlier, the difference between 72F and 80F is only about 5C. How high are your temps at 80F increase in ambient?

**OldGeek** · 06-14-2009, 11:58 PM

Re: Heat challenge

We'll end it there. Again, no consensus on the quality or ability of the Domino in the press...by that I mean review sites....except several here have a pretty strong adversion to the unit...so noted. Although not fond of the idea of any of a monkey's anatomy, especially that alluded to, $80 is a worthwhile gamble. I looked, studied over and over every single review of the unit.

I like to think things through and perhaps my thoughts suck or by shear luck I'm a little right on occasion. In this case, the Domino serves two purposes. One, at the medium setting, it changes fan speed based on need and the noise is within reason. Two, it throws the heat captured straight out of the case, unlike the Thermaltake, which was my first choice. I am not in the $300 to $400+ category. I don't have the money. So the only thing I have is the ability to compromise. If the unit throws the heat out of the case, then at the least the heat load on the other motherboard components will be the same or less than a good air unit. Am going to use EIST so maybe that will help. The air cooler I've got now was VERY highly rated depending on who you read or listen to. But the temps are so-so at best, even the top of the line air units leave the removed CPU heat in the case, albeit for a fairly short time if the case if properly ventilated. The only way I'll know is to give it a spin. If the temps approach the best air units then that is enough. All reviews made it clear that a 4.0GHz OC is out of the range of this unit. 3.4GHz is as high as I'm going given my ambient heat, not to mention my practical needs. 3.4 on a 2.4? That'll work.

The barbs on the radiator do give me concern. Can't think why they would fail if they are not being messed with. there is no assembly after all except maybe as the tubes are manipulated as the heat exchanger is attached. Perhaps all liquid units should come with a catch tray fixture thus sparing the rig from coolant damage should a leak occur. Other pros are an audible alarm if something is wrong and at least some information is available from the side display.

I apologize for asking for input and turning around and rejecting or at least showing some skepticism. There are no absolutes. Look at Newton vs. Einstein. It just depends on where you are at the time. What is gospel one moment is a history lesson the next. The only absolute here is that $300 to $400 would get me where I REALLY want to be. My thought was to mount the radiator on the top where the two 120mm fans are now. But that is the expensive route. Have even read where that has issues too. I'm a black and white person in a grey world.

Thanks for everyone's input and I'll let you know just how full of sh*t and stupid I was to take this path. I'll be first to admit here that I was dead wrong or just maybe it meets my needs and works for me.

Sucking any monkey bits is still out.

**Psycho101** · 06-15-2009, 08:20 AM

Re: Heat challenge

Hehe! The barbs are problematic due to the material the piping is made from.

In a conventional fillable WC loop, some water is lost through the piping. this is a natural occurance, as even the most water tight of plastic is still porous. As the Domino is a sealed no maintenance unit, they need to eliminate as much coolant loss as is physically possible. The thicker piping helps achieve this, but it's very rigid as a result. Careless manipulation of the piping can cause the barbs to snap. It's also worth noting that some reviewers have attributed this to the use of poor quality plastic.

Alarm bells certainly go off for me about the quality of the product, especially when there are CPU water blocks that are more expensive than the Domino. I suppose you only get a certain amount of product for $80.

Having said that, I haven't fitted one, and the one I did see working, I wasn't able to see any CPU temps or run any stress tests.

I hope it does work for what you need.

One thing I would try first though is a re-aplication of TIM. I've recently installed a couple of heatpipe direct touch coolers in other machines, and it can be hard to get the right TIM aplication. The best method I found was to initially use some paste and a piece of plastic to spread TIM into the tiny gaps between heat pipes and the aluminium bars un between them. Then wipe the TIM off the heat pipes and bars. The TIM should be applied onto the two aluminium bars which are left and right of the centre heat pipe. a small line about 1/4 the length of the bar, directly on top and running with it, produced the best results. Temps dropped by 3-4c instantly.

**OldGeek** · 06-16-2009, 02:20 AM

Re: Heat challenge

I read about the tube issue before buying the unit. I am aware that all tubing is porous to one degree or another and CoolIT took that into account with the stiff tubing. It makes sense as I figured that being careless with the pipes could be a problem. Downside is that the radiator is aluminum which, unless an alloy of some type is a rather "soft" metal. The warranty is 2 years and the design life is 7. Much better odds than Vegas.

Remounting the HDT cooler? 6 times so far using every method I've read about and one from an article suggested here which is how it runs now. The only difference observed was about 1C cooler when using the back bracket rather than the 775 pins.

Had questioned that the application of the TIM would be by design uneven when I bought the Scorpion. I didn't specifically order the Red Scorpion which turns out not to be as good as the black unit. I seem to remember that they started to nickel plate the heat pipes on the Scorpion. Newegg sent a S1283 which it appears to be the common number for the HDT units.

During the first install I wondered about those tiny gaps between the pipes and the cooling block to which you allude, so I used the baggie method and put down a very thin layer on top of the CPU. Using the HDT article's method took the better half of 30 min to get it just right by the instructions and expect that the contact is good. Did it make a difference? Nope. So if nothing else, there is consistency no matter how the TIM has been applied and just the 1C difference by using the optional back mounting bracket.

Am finding unless you go big bucks, you pay your money and take your chances...I will report back how this turns out. If my judgment was bogus, it will be published here first. This is a learning process for me and very much appreciate the dialogue on all the issues I've brought up here.

As long as I'm at it, any opinions on the Thermaltake ProWater 850i ? Looks like the radiator might be more rugged. Haven't had any experience with Thermaltake so don't know if they are any more or less a gamble than the Domino. Thoughts?

**OldGeek** · 06-17-2009, 05:36 PM

Re: Heat challenge

The Domino has been installed. Only issue is messing with C clips as you have to change the position of the attachment posts one notch to match the 775 holes. The good news, the X brace on the back of the MB that had been installed for the Red Scorpion fit the Domino perfectly.

So how does it work?... as with much in life it is the ability to set realistic expectations. I did not expect much at the $80 price point. At most a couple of degrees. Expectations met. Running at 3.4GHz, the temps are down 2C to 3C. The Intel burn test was down 4C to 5C as they were below 70C. All good.

If the barbs on the radiator are an issue, it should take a bit longer to show itself as I noticed that they seem to be reinforced. A design change? Also like the rubber "nipples" that hold the unit to the case. Also noted is that the build quality is much better than I had expected. They do provide extra attachment hardware if you lose one...like a C clip. Nice touch.

CoolIT gives a 2 year warranty and a 7 year design life. At $80, that is more than reasonable.

The system is set on the medium setting where a majority of folks that use this unit have set it. This setting varies the fan speed based on the demand. Watching CPUID indicates that the fan speed change is doing what is advertised. It is in fact noisy at the high setting but it does mean a 2C to 4C reduction in heat. Am using EIST function so the system goes from 3.4GHz down to 2.5GHz, again meets my needs. It also seems to throttle up fast when the load suddenly increases. I've heard and will try later that the C1E allows the throttling but is somewhat sluggish.

So bottom line? Only time will tell...so far expectations have been met. It is obvious that OC'ing to 4.0GHz will overwhelm the unit. But I don't need something that fast. May try out 3.6MHz late at night...when it's cool in my room... and see what happens.

Any comments? Please know I am listening to both everyone that is participating in my post and my wallet.

**kick** · 06-17-2009, 06:57 PM

Re: Heat challenge

Since you are not going all out liquid cooling and you run a/c in your house/apt why not position the pc near the cool air outlet or duct the air to the pc.
Desert air is dry air compared to say florida so condensation shouldnt be a prob.

**Psycho101** · 06-17-2009, 07:59 PM

Re: Heat challenge

Seems like you have a posative result, which is good. I'm glad you've at least reaped some benefit from your investment. Money is money, no matter the sum involved, so I'm pleased it's working.

How does the unit cope with prolonged load? I've seen a few low flow WC units with small coolant reserves (bay res) that perform amazingly for a time, until the fluid starts to heat up a little. A true test of the Domino would be whether it's able to keep enough heat out of the coolant indefinitely.

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