Radiators and reserviors

[synack]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

I have a question about putting your radiator above your reservoir and pump. The Question is how will you keep the radiator full of water so it can be more efficient? If it is laying flat and you have the fittings facing down then how will you keep it full of water?? To me it seems they would be just enough water in it to move to the next fitting nothing to make it actually fill up. Water takes the path of least resistance and also tries to move to the lowest point and be level depending on the amount of water in system. </SPAN>

Am I thinking wrong or not seeing something right??</SPAN>

I have room in my case so I think I am going to turn the top radiator to where the fitting come out of the top this will add some resistance but will make sure that the radiator is full and doing its most efficient job. I think?? </SPAN>

Can anyone add to this or help me see the engineering of the fluid hydraulics better??</SPAN>

Doh wish I hadn't been busy over the last day or so, so i'll try and answer your questions in pieces.

Water stays in the rad very much like water stays in a straw if you plug the top. the pump/reservoir are typically sealed with the rest of the system thus preventing water from flowing unless the pump is running.

[synack]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

LOL nevermind. I should have read the WHOLE thread first... looks like boondocks has already answered :)


Syn

[nleksan]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

Hey all, new here but thought I'd chime in...


Having the two radiators "sandwiched" like you have described is really not at all ideal for your temps, as only one radiator will be getting cool air, with the other receiving already-warmed air having passed through the fins of the first and absorbed a certain degree of heat. This also means that, as the air will have become heated to a certain level, it's ability to carry heat from the second rad is diminished. Add the two together, as well as the reduced airflow from trying to essentially use a single fan configuration for what amounts to a 120mm-thick radiator, and you will get cooling that is no better, or only very marginally so, than a single radiator.

I personally use a UT60 240 as my second rad in my loop, and they are absolutely phenomenal radiators, with one of the most linear "static pressure of fans-to-Watts dissipated" curves I've ever seen. Personally, I run a total of 4 Koolance 120x25mm 2600rpm fans in push pull, with each fan pushing 5.4mmH2O and 107.4cfm, and I really don't know if I could get it any cooler (other rad is an XSPC EX420 with 6 Bgears Blasters 140mm push-pull).


I highly suggest that you NOT use a "rad sandwich" (two rads, one set of fans), and instead use the two radiators in two separate locations, each rad having its own set of fans (push, pull, or push-pull). The difference in temperatures are significant, and honestly you would simply be wasting a lot of money on a nice radiator that wouldn't do anything in the first setup. (I have actually experimented with this, so I have first-hand knowledge regarding this exact radiator; also, Martin did some serious testing about the Rad Sandwich, which is absolutely worth a read!).


Anyway, hope that helps, and thanks for having me here!

[synack]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

I agree. sandwiched fans/rads are not optimal. neither is having the rads at the bottom of the case either, but lots of people do it.. so why not? lol

actually i'm even particular about fan placement. I don't myself even use the fans in a "push" method ever. Pressure against the rad coils from the fans can increase the temp (yea i know like maybe 1 degree?!? but it's 1 degree lol)
fans in a pull configuration places a small vacuum between the rad and switch which cools the rad that extra little bit, and places the extra degree on the outside of the fan. (following conservation of energy of course)

Syn

[seross69]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

nleksan thank you for the well written answer. I was going to experiment with this using temp sensors but since you have dont it I dont guess i need to. I also will be reading what Martin said i have read a lot of his information but had not seen anyting on Rad sandwiches. well thanks again and will have to modify my plans but cant wait to get started.

[nleksan]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

You're quite welcome!

I actually don't even bother with temp sensors much anymore, although I do keep a number of the small-LCD screen ones around, because at the end of the day it's the component temps that matter, not the Delta-T (unless you're trying to diagnose an issue, hence my keeping them around ).



There's the link to Martin's testing. I HIGHLY recommend that anyone new to water-cooling spend a day (or five) reading EVERYTHING ever written on his site! It's seriously that good, and that informative!

I realize I am new here, and have yet to establish any sort of credibility, but please, if you have any other questions, anything at all, don't hesitate to ask!

[seross69]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

thanks for this and I did read this today dont know how i had missed it before but it got me thinking as i am going to use Koolance Premium High Performance Fan, 120x38mm, 184CFM in the center of the sandwich. this are 4000 RPM and static pressure of 20.4. I did see on his results that the higher the rpm the better they worked. I was planning on using these fans and covering the top and bottom of the rads with sound insulation to keep the sound down when i had them at full rpm and noise. so i am sorry to say but this has got me thinking that maybe it might work. i know i should listen to people that know better but i just have this idea stuck in my head..

[boondocks]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

What you are going to have is a whole bunch of noise. lol. I'm running 16 AP15's on my 2x480mm rads and they are whisper quiet at 1200 rpm, which is about all I usually need.
But good luck to you, if you can stand the noise you'll probably work it out OK.

[nleksan]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

I agree, I don't think you quite realize how INSANELY LOUD those 184cfm 4krpm Koolance 120x38 fans are! I have been a HUGE "Fan" of Koolance fans (hehe) ever since first "discovering" their 120x25 and 120x38 2600rpm models (same motors, only difference is frame and angle of blades); they use dual-ball bearing motors, undervolt perfectly with a BitFenix Hydra Pro, are quieter than the CM R4 which is a much slower and lower powered fan, they push 5.4mmH2O (120x25)/6.4mmH2O (120x38) static pressure, 107.4cfm/118cfm, and they only cost $8 each!!!
I have four of the 120x25 in use right now, push/pull on an Alphacool UT60 240, and they are seriously the absolute best fans I have used for the money, and they beat out just about every single fan regardless of the money, with the only 120mm fans I prefer being the Sanyo Denkei San-Ace (expensive) fans.

Having used the Koolance 120x38 4000rpm fans, I can tell you a few things:
1) They pull 29.8W from the power source, (2.5A*12V), which will literally blow your MB fan headers; that means you need a fan controller with AT LEAST 45W/ch, and dedicate an entire channel to just one fan! I still have C110 copper heatsinks mounted on the Voltage Regulators of my Hydra Pro from testing it with the 4krpm Koolance fans, and even had an 80x25mm fan blowing onto the back of the FAN CONTROLLER! It worked, but BARELY... The back of the controller was getting to ~75-85C!!!
2) With 3x of these fans at ~75% speed (in a closed PC Case at one end of my house; 2nd floor, room in the corner so 2 outside walls), I could hear them from the absolute opposite corner of my house... That's a total of 5800sq-ft, and from the fans to me there was 2 floors and 9 walls! They are THAT LOUD! (Oh, and all of my interior walls have Wet-Pack blown-cellulose insulation, R-value of 22; floors an R-value of 35; and the basement home theater, where these were audible from at 100% speed, is a full room-within-a-room for my home theater)..... THEY ARE LOUD!!!
3) YOU MUST BUY FAN GRILLS FOR BOTH SIDES OF THE FANS! I don't think they should even be legally allowed to ship without them, because you WILL lose a finger/toe/other-appendage-you-shouldn't-have-anywhere-near-a-fan!
4) Unless you are using a 22-30fpi radiator, and a 50-65mm-thick one at that, these are PURE OVERKILL! You will gain maybe one half of one degree TOTAL cooling power over using the aforementioned 2600rpm 120x38 fans.

Best of luck with your setup, I just wanted to warn you about these devils, er, fans!

[seross69]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

Well Nleksan you have made you point and made it well. I will be changing my plans and cutting the bottomout of the cosmos II so that I can use the fan you said for a push pull. i was planning on using these for the other side of the sandwich but this will not be happening now. thank you for your sound advise and direction. it will save me from having to but additional items to power these crazy fans. as i am going to use a aquaero 5 LT USB fan controller to control and monitor the temps on my water cooling lines. also it will control the pumps and to use these fans i was going to have to buy 50 dollar Aquacomputer Poweradjust 2 USB - Ultra-Series to control each one this way i will not have to do this. so after considering everything your idea is really better all around.

thanks again. i hope to get lots of more advice before i build and also hope i am able to buy a quad tec and controller from mindchill. i had someone give me a water cooler so i am not sure how this build will go i hope to cool the tec cpu block, 2 gxt 680 or maybe 690's, ram and motherboard on 2 alphacool UT60 240, 1 alphacool UT30 360 and 1 alpha cool 120 monsta rads with the koolance fans you told me about. if i have to use the water chiller i will but hope it will be just for playing.

[nleksan]

Re: Radiators and reserviors

You are very welcome! I am glad to hear that my advice is not only going to help in terms of performance, but also will save you some money! Win-Win!