I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

[FalloutBoy]

Hey ASRock I want to know when you are lifting the NDA on the Z87 Extreme 11/ac I am tired of waiting and at the rate things are going I'll just go and buy a couple of SAS cards instead - on top
of which I will NEVER purchase an ASRock product - I expect some answers and if I don't get them you will loose a customer before you ever gained them.

Being secretive about things - DOES NOT MAKE YOUR PRODUCT MORE DESIRABLE it simply makes prospective buyers EXTREMELY ANNOYED!

How long does it take to get an answer from you guys surely it shouldn't take this long to answer a simple non technical question, or is this a reflection of the normal levels of support one should expect from you?

[WilliamM2]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

I expect some answers and if I don't get them you will loose a customer before you ever gained them.

So they lose nothing? How often do demands like this work out for you?

[parsec]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

The Haswell/Z87 platform is very new, barely a month old now. I doubt that any mother board manufacture has all their models available from day one of the release of the new platform. All models may not even be available in all areas. I imagine all mother board manufactures are still scrambling to improve the BIOS/UEFI of the products that are available, especially given the differences that Haswell CPUs bring.

Other factors may be holding back the release date of this board, such as a shortage of parts (SAS chips), the price of the SAS chips being more than was expected, or even problems with the board when using the SAS chips. I've seen posts in this forum about problems with the Z77 version of the board you are wondering about.

Frankly, no release date or price was ever released by ASRock, and complaining about it not being released one month after the launch of the CPU and chipset is a waste of time.

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

So they lose nothing? How often do demands like this work out for you?

Well being that ASRock does not know how many people I advise on PC hardware purchases in this instance the probability is not good - but needless to say that the number of people that come to me for hardware advice is a lot.

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

The Haswell/Z87 platform is very new, barely a month old now. I doubt that any mother board manufacture has all their models available from day one of the release of the new platform. All models may not even be available in all areas. I imagine all mother board manufactures are still scrambling to improve the BIOS/UEFI of the products that are available, especially given the differences that Haswell CPUs bring.

Other factors may be holding back the release date of this board, such as a shortage of parts (SAS chips), the price of the SAS chips being more than was expected, or even problems with the board when using the SAS chips. I've seen posts in this forum about problems with the Z77 version of the board you are wondering about.

>> O.K so ASRock can release a huge plethora of Z87 Extreme(x)/ac but the one board that they flag shipped has problems - that does not inspire a lot of confidence.

Frankly, no release date or price was ever released by ASRock, and complaining about it not being released one month after the launch of the CPU and chipset is a waste of time.

Well if there is a damned problem tell the users there's a problem don't go silent - let the user have some expectation of when its going to be sorted, Christ if my PC clients had a problem and I didn't keep them up to date about what was going on I'd be out of business - It's called having good customer communications skills and good customer relations.

Also hearing that their Z77 product line is still having problems is awesomely inspiring - you mean they haven't sorted the problems yet - that's just plain hopeless.

I don't think it's unreasonable from anyone to expect that if their Haswell line is shown on their website that it be their whole Haswell line, I have been told that there is an NDA on the 11/ac well that's fine it is still a reasonable thing to find out when that NDA will be lifted or get an ERA or ETA of when it will be here but none of that is happening despite multiple posts here and E-Mails to sales@asrock.

I'm calling it Vaporware for the time being I call B.S its only for show.

[parsec]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

Well if there is a damned problem tell the users there's a problem don't go silent - let the user have some expectation of when its going to be sorted, Christ if my PC clients had a problem and I didn't keep them up to date about what was going on I'd be out of business - It's called having good customer communications skills and good customer relations.

Also hearing that their Z77 product line is still having problems is awesomely inspiring - you mean they haven't sorted the problems yet - that's just plain hopeless.

I don't think it's unreasonable from anyone to expect that if their Haswell line is shown on their website that it be their whole Haswell line, I have been told that there is an NDA on the 11/ac well that's fine it is still a reasonable thing to find out when that NDA will be lifted or get an ERA or ETA of when it will be here but none of that is happening despite multiple posts here and E-Mails to sales@asrock.

I'm calling it Vaporware for the time being I call B.S its only for show.

I basically agree with that, but in my experience with various PC hardware manufactures, they all follow the same trend. That is, the less said the better. People can raise holy heck in their forums, and the most they'll say is, you'll know when we're done.

BTW, I never said that ASRock was having problems with their Z77 product line:

"I've seen posts in this forum about problems with the Z77 version of the board you are wondering about."

I was only referring to the ONE board, the Z77 Extreme 11, that has the SAS controller. The "problems" were in three or so individual threads, so not extensive, but a hint at what might be happening. I should have been more specific.

That is a perfect example of one reason why the manufactures don't say much if anything about issues. Anything they say can and will be misinterpreted and mutated into all kinds of nonsense as it is passed from one person to another.

Actually the main reason nothing is said is simple, once you make a statement, you are responsible for it. An issue does not really become a reality until the manufacture states/admits the issue exists.

So instead of stating a release date for a product, which if is missed then becomes an issue, saying nothing is the safest compromise.

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

I basically agree with that, but in my experience with various PC hardware manufactures, they all follow the same trend. That is, the less said the better. People can raise holy heck in their forums, and the most they'll say is, you'll know when we're done.

BTW, I never said that ASRock was having problems with their Z77 product line:

"I've seen posts in this forum about problems with the Z77 version of the board you are wondering about."

I was only referring to the ONE board, the Z77 Extreme 11, that has the SAS controller. The "problems" were in three or so individual threads, so not extensive, but a hint at what might be happening. I should have been more specific.

That is a perfect example of one reason why the manufactures don't say much if anything about issues. Anything they say can and will be misinterpreted and mutated into all kinds of nonsense as it is passed from one person to another.

Actually the main reason nothing is said is simple, once you make a statement, you are responsible for it. An issue does not really become a reality until the manufacture states/admits the issue exists.

So instead of stating a release date for a product, which if is missed then becomes an issue, saying nothing is the safest compromise.

What I was meaning that with the age of the product you would have expected that any issues regarding the SAS controller on that extreme 11 board (which in this case is part of the z77 range) would have been sorted out. - So not confidence inspiring still stands.

It's also an example of how other people can miss interpret what an author is trying to say and I shall choose my words more carefully from now on and be more specific - I was speaking more in a group manor than in a specific manor.

Accept that if you are having to delay a product because you are having some issue then you shouldn't even mention it because as soon as you do people expect and not unreasonably to be able to purchase said product - having it in a show and sending it out to various other organizations to publicize it means it's ready now in the context that they displayed all the other boards as well.
If you can't put it out there for the consumer - don't mention it at all.

Now that it has been mentioned, I myself and other people I know want one - we can see all the other ASRock z87 boards around yet we can't see this so of course we want to know why and how long - it's a reasonable expectation.

[2lalaland]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

Not like this matters much, but I am 100% in agreement with you Falloutboy. Everything you said in this post plus the other. Very bad business practices. So sad too. Maybe this is the new way of corporate america? If this be the case, let me shoot myself now, LOL! I have been in sales pretty much all my life, I could never stand behind a product so half assed. Sorry, I said it, but it's the truth. From reading your comments, you are just that guy. Don't jeopardize your reputation for another, if you know what I mean?

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

Not like this matters much, but I am 100% in agreement with you Falloutboy. Everything you said in this post plus the other. Very bad business practices. So sad too. Maybe this is the new way of corporate america? If this be the case, let me shoot myself now, LOL! I have been in sales pretty much all my life, I could never stand behind a product so half assed. Sorry, I said it, but it's the truth. From reading your comments, you are just that guy. Don't jeopardize your reputation for another, if you know what I mean?

I don't quite know what you mean - I pride myself on my reputation, if I say something won't work - it won't work, if I say it will, I know it will, If I give you facts - you know they're facts, to me life is only explainable in black and white - there is no grey it either is or isn't not could be or might be - that means it's not. Some people think of it as a fault and possibly it is - they are entitled to their opinion ; however as I said when I say something - It's true - not might be - not maybe - it is, unfortunately for some I expect the same from everyone else and I find it hard to trust people who don't work this way.

I would like a quote as to what this repair would cost. "oh about 2-300$ + parts" is not a quote it's bill padding, and the other answer I hate is - "it depends", what this actually means is how dumb are you and how much can I make you pay for it.

I have been in I.T for 37 years, I was teaching I.T at the age of 13, I have also worked in the security, payroll and banking sectors requiring high security clearance in administrative rolls and I know all the stunts that people try and pull, I also can program in 22 different computer languages ( admittedly many are now defunct ) but that's not the point.

You can't B.S someone unless they want to believe your B.S and I've learnt that the hard way so I get damned annoyed if I feel I'm being B.S'd and at the moment I am damned annoyed, am I saying I'm perfect - no, but I won't show somebody something which is incomplete or faulty because it's just a plain unreasonable thing to do and I would piss off customers if I did - not a good way to stay in business.

I will admit however that ASUS has also been guilty of being somewhat half assed recently - very disappointing to find it's not limited to just one company.

Thanks for your response, I would appreciate a little clarification about the - know what I mean bit.

Cheers.

[2lalaland]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

"I pride myself on my reputation" is exactly what I mean ;) Don't jeopardize your entire career for something you WANT it to be if it's not. I'm not in your situtation, but if they released this prematurely & still don't have the kinks worked out, your reputation will be at jeopardy, you see? Most end users don't understand this sort of thing so it will come down to you, my dear. Don't risk your reputation, it isn't worth it.

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

"I pride myself on my reputation" is exactly what I mean ;) Don't jeopardize your entire career for something you WANT it to be if it's not. I'm not in your situtation, but if they released this prematurely & still don't have the kinks worked out, your reputation will be at jeopardy, you see? Most end users don't understand this sort of thing so it will come down to you, my dear. Don't risk your reputation, it isn't worth it.

I appreciate what you're saying but at the same time I've got people clambering for more information and wanting a decision which is one of the reasons I'm getting so frustrated with the lack of answers the z87 Extreme 11 ac is clearly the best choice for a lot of them but only if it works and is available.

As for me I'm trying to write a RADE at the moment and software development and constant interruption aren't known for going hand in hand - so not only was I looking forward to this platform for the sake of myself but also for the sake of my sanity. Regarding the kinks it sounds like they haven't got them worked out for the z77 version either so why oh why did they mention the z87 one?

[parsec]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

Not like this matters much, but I am 100% in agreement with you Falloutboy. Everything you said in this post plus the other. Very bad business practices. So sad too. Maybe this is the new way of corporate america? If this be the case, let me shoot myself now, LOL! I have been in sales pretty much all my life, I could never stand behind a product so half assed. Sorry, I said it, but it's the truth. From reading your comments, you are just that guy. Don't jeopardize your reputation for another, if you know what I mean?

IMO, corporate America does not apply here, because ASRock is not an American company. Sure they market products in the USA, and all over the world, but they are a Taiwanese company, owned by another Taiwanese company, Pegatron.

Marketing BS in the PC hardware world is common, and remains in the face of users knowing better. Since the X58 board days, the Marvell SATA chipsets included on most X58 boards are advertised as "SATA 6Gb/s". PC enthusiasts have known for years that these Marvell SATA chipsets perform poorly, and are only capable of being connected to one PCIe 2.0 lane, at 5Gb/s max. That is not per SATA port, that is per chipset, one PCIe 2.0 lane in, and one out.

Calling this interface SATA 6Gb/s is simply false. To this day, and now including the ASMedia SATA chipset (with the same PCIe lane architecture as the Marvell SATA chipsets), these SATA interfaces are still advertised as SATA 6Gb/s. My Z87 mother board specs its ASMedia SATA chipset as SATA 6Gb/s. My X58 board was available in the summer of 2010, and it's now the summer of 2013, and the marketing specs for these chips has not changed.

How does that happen? You tell me.

Why did ASRock show off a Z87 Extreme 11 board at the Computex 2013 PC hardware show, with 22 SSDs connected to it? For the attention, look at me! If you read the details in a few of the news articles about it, the board was not even functioning completely, the SAS chip was in JBOD mode. Also, 16 drives were connected to the SAS chip, its maximum. Is this similar to a Concept car seen at Auto shows?

The articles about this board all say no release date was given.

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

imo, corporate america does not apply here, because asrock is not an american company. Sure they market products in the usa, and all over the world, but they are a taiwanese company, owned by another taiwanese company, pegatron.

Marketing bs in the pc hardware world is common, and remains in the face of users knowing better. Since the x58 board days, the marvell sata chipsets included on most x58 boards are advertised as "sata 6gb/s". Pc enthusiasts have known for years that these marvell sata chipsets perform poorly, and are only capable of being connected to one pcie 2.0 lane, at 5gb/s max. That is not per sata port, that is per chipset, one pcie 2.0 lane in, and one out.

Calling this interface sata 6gb/s is simply false. To this day, and now including the asmedia sata chipset (with the same pcie lane architecture as the marvell sata chipsets), these sata interfaces are still advertised as sata 6gb/s. My z87 mother board specs its asmedia sata chipset as sata 6gb/s. My x58 board was available in the summer of 2010, and it's now the summer of 2013, and the marketing specs for these chips has not changed.

How does that happen? You tell me.

What you are stating is one of the things that I believe is very wrong in the PC Industry - overstating a product or part of a products ability and it's not on if it can't actually do 6gb/s then don't say it can, I think the world has become very complacent and in the situation where these things occur class action suits are required be it by either an individual or a group of individuals against the manufacturer of the chips and if the motherboard manufacturer is aware of the deviation at does not post a caveat saying that the chip will not perform as expected and it can be proven that they were complicit with the supplier because they knew about they problem they should be sued as well.

For the attention, look at me! If you read the details in a few of the news articles about it, the board was not even functioning completely, the sas chip was in jbod mode. Also, 16 drives were connected to the sas chip, its maximum. Is this similar to a concept car seen at auto shows?

The articles about this board all say no release date was given.

I don't attend auto shows and what I know about cars is where to put the petrol in ; however the board functioning in JBOD mode wouldn't have been a problem as this is what we were going to be using it on a per drive per operating system basis for anyway in conjunction with Microsoft Storage Spaces for the Windows 8 OS so raiding wasn't an issue.
One thing that did surprise me is that they were using dual stacked SATA connectors to exit connections from the motherboard to the SAS/SATA drives I would have thought that four SFF-8087's would have been a more efficient use of space ; however I suppose in a $ based comparison SATA cables are far cheaper as are the headers against a more space effective product.

I still feel however if you are releasing a range - you are releasing the whole range - otherwise it can't be called the range.
I also feel that if you can't release it now you shouldn't show it now , doing so makes for a poor impression of your company.
I believe that ASRock should find a large boot on a coiled spring and build an outrageous machine that kicks the responsible employees butt until the board is available to the public in good working order.

One of the other things that ticks me off is when you buy a 2G hard drive and manufacturers specify G in the respect of 1000(n) they only say G for marketing purposes and to make it sound more impressive - the computer industry has always been 1024(n) and just because people cant tell the difference between kb and kg - so what let them actually learn something for a change instead of bending to the will of the dominant populis who believe mediocrity is a goal because they have achieved it. To boot if what hard drive manufacturers are doing is correct then why isn't memory measurement done the same way? because those manufacturers got it wrong - deliberately.

The only way things are going to change is enough people stand up and say - "this is not good enough" but it wont happen because people are content just to accept whatever crap is shoved down their throats and let the world will go to hell in a hand basket.

[parsec]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

What you are stating is one of the things that I believe is very wrong in the PC Industry - overstating a product or part of a products ability and it's not on if it can't actually do 6gb/s then don't say it can, I think the world has become very complacent and in the situation where these things occur class action suits are required be it by either an individual or a group of individuals against the manufacturer of the chips and if the motherboard manufacturer is aware of the deviation at does not post a caveat saying that the chip will not perform as expected and it can be proven that they were complicit with the supplier because they knew about they problem they should be sued as well.

I agree 1000%! On one hand, it seems a class action lawsuit is just sitting there, waiting to be noticed. On the other, do the usual magic words "Specification subject to change without notice" and "Up to..." are all that is needed to protect these companies?

I don't attend auto shows and what I know about cars is where to put the petrol in ; however the board functioning in JBOD mode wouldn't have been a problem as this is what we were going to be using it on a per drive per operating system basis for anyway in conjunction with Microsoft Storage Spaces for the Windows 8 OS so raiding wasn't an issue.
One thing that did surprise me is that they were using dual stacked SATA connectors to exit connections from the motherboard to the SAS/SATA drives I would have thought that four SFF-8087's would have been a more efficient use of space ; however I suppose in a $ based comparison SATA cables are far cheaper as are the headers against a more space effective product.

I still feel however if you are releasing a range - you are releasing the whole range - otherwise it can't be called the range.
I also feel that if you can't release it now you shouldn't show it now , doing so makes for a poor impression of your company.
I believe that ASRock should find a large boot on a coiled spring and build an outrageous machine that kicks the responsible employees butt until the board is available to the public in good working order.

Sorry to appear as an ASRock apologist, I originally just wanted to give a few reasons why the reality is not what you'd like it to be. But now I realize, here you are, wanting to be an ASRock customer, wanting to purchase this product, and simply requesting information about its release. Normally, it is respectful for a manufacture to provide some kind of response. I suppose it has only been one day since you started this thread, but how long does it take to reply with, "We are looking into this and will get back to you."

Yes, this "ASRock support forum" also does not give a good impression of the company, check the Welcome to ASRock Technical Support Forum! sticky thread at the top of the forum page for an example of this. "Sean C" is the new support person that will be answering questions, whose first post in that thread is dated 5/5/2010. The last Sean C post made in this forum is dated 2/21/2011, almost two and a half years ago! Poor chumps still post in that thread, asking "Sean" for help to this day. But nothing has been changed on the first page of that thread. Given all this, it's clear IMO that the attitude is, who cares.

One of the other things that ticks me off is when you buy a 2G hard drive and manufacturers specify G in the respect of 1000(n) they only say G for marketing purposes and to make it sound more impressive - the computer industry has always been 1024(n) and just because people cant tell the difference between kb and kg - so what let them actually learn something for a change instead of bending to the will of the dominant populis who believe mediocrity is a goal because they have achieved it. To boot if what hard drive manufacturers are doing is correct then why isn't memory measurement done the same way? because those manufacturers got it wrong - deliberately.

The only way things are going to change is enough people stand up and say - "this is not good enough" but it wont happen because people are content just to accept whatever crap is shoved down their throats and let the world will go to hell in a hand basket.

I agree 1000% with this as well. IMO, one of the problems with things like this is the number of uneducated customers that exist. You know as well as I that many PC enthusiasts still don't understand what you described, so what chance is there that the average person does? As soon as one HDD company listed capacity in the manner that makes it appear larger, if the others don't their product will appear smaller in capacity and thus less desirable. For all we know, this trend may have been started by an ignorant marketing person.

[FalloutBoy]

Re: I am beginning to get very annoyed and frustrated with ASRock.

I agree 1000%! On one hand, it seems a class action lawsuit is just sitting there, waiting to be noticed. On the other, do the usual magic words "Specification subject to change without notice" and "Up to..." are all that is needed to protect these companies?



Sorry to appear as an ASRock apologist, I originally just wanted to give a few reasons why the reality is not what you'd like it to be. But now I realize, here you are, wanting to be an ASRock customer, wanting to purchase this product, and simply requesting information about its release. Normally, it is respectful for a manufacture to provide some kind of response. I suppose it has only been one day since you started this thread, but how long does it take to reply with, "We are looking into this and will get back to you."

Yes, this "ASRock support forum" also does not give a good impression of the company, check the Welcome to ASRock Technical Support Forum! sticky thread at the top of the forum page for an example of this. "Sean C" is the new support person that will be answering questions, whose first post in that thread is dated 5/5/2010. The last Sean C post made in this forum is dated 2/21/2011, almost two and a half years ago! Poor chumps still post in that thread, asking "Sean" for help to this day. But nothing has been changed on the first page of that thread. Given all this, it's clear IMO that the attitude is, who cares.



I agree 1000% with this as well. IMO, one of the problems with things like this is the number of uneducated customers that exist. You know as well as I that many PC enthusiasts still don't understand what you described, so what chance is there that the average person does? As soon as one HDD company listed capacity in the manner that makes it appear larger, if the others don't their product will appear smaller in capacity and thus less desirable. For all we know, this trend may have been started by an ignorant marketing person.

Well I finally got an answer to one of my E-Mails, at least now there is an answer.

Hello,

Z87 Extreme11/ac will be launched in the end of July.
So, first boards should be available on market around Mid of August.

Best regards


ASRock Support


ASRock Europe B.V.
Bijsterhuizen 31-51
6604 LV Wijchen
The Netherlands
HTPC, Home Theatre PC Manufacturer & Supplier - ASRock Inc.