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Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

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  • Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Here I go again with Sata Port problems, but this time it is on the Z97 Extreme6/4790K system.
    I had the following configuration and it was working ok:
    Sata3_0 Sandisk Extreme Pro 256GB
    Sata3_1 OCZ Vertex 3 128GB - sometimes this drive would "disappear" at boot time!
    Sata3_2 WD Raptor 250GB
    Sata3_3 WD Black 1TB
    Sata3_5 WD Black 1TB
    Sata3_A3 Pioneer BDR-207D
    With the exception of the sometimes missing OCZ SSD this configuration worked Ok.

    A few days ago I replaced the OCZ SSD with a third WD Black 1TB drive. Sometime shortly after that change the system went into a funk. The boot times went out of site and W8.1 became unusable with the little blue circle spinning and eventually giving me the pretty blue screen. At that point I thought I had corrupted the boot drive (Sata3_0). I reinstalled W8.1 and nothing changed the system was unresponsive and had all the same problems. I disconnected all the drives and installed a brand new Sandisk Extreme Pro SSD. Reinstalled W8.1 on this drive and ran the system with no issues. I then reconnected the other drives one at a time and discovered Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 although detected by the BIOS W8.1 did not recognize either port. BUT when a drive was in Sata3_3 or Sata3_4 Windows had a tendency to become unresponsive and eventually crash. So I ended up moving the WD Black drive I wanted on Sata3_3 or on Sata3_4 to Sata3_A1 and all is "well".

    I tried the following after reinstalling W8.1 on the new SSD before giving up on Sata3_3 and Sata3_4:
    Reverted back to the BIOS's default settings.
    Removed 2 of the 4 GSkill 2400 4GB memory sticks.
    Change the Memory to Auto vs XMP 1.3.
    Swapped Sata cables.
    Ran Chkdsk on the WD Black drive.
    Tried a different WD Black 640GB drive on Sata3_3 and Sata3_4.
    Set the M2.2/Sata3_4, Sata3_5 Switch to Force Sata instead of Auto.
    AND probably a few other things I've missed!

    Seems strange that I'm having problems with the "dual" usage ports. This problem may have been there since day since I was not using all the Sata ports until a few days ago. Any ideas on what the heck is going on would be appreciated.

  • #2
    Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

    Have you tried changing NCQ/AHCI/IDE options? Since you are using a mix of SSDs and HDDs, it may affect the windows operation.

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    • #3
      Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

      Originally posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
      Have you tried changing NCQ/AHCI/IDE options? Since you are using a mix of SSDs and HDDs, it may affect the windows operation.
      Don't change the Intel SATA mode from AHCI!!!

      AHCI was originally invented to help HDDs achieve better performance, but fortunately helps SSDs perform better with a file system that was designed for HDDs. Mixing SATA HDDs and SSDs is not a problem, the SATA protocol is the same. Once the IO commands are in a drive, then it's the drives problem to get it right.

      I will ask you (Ken) if you are setting the SATA Device Type option for each drive listed in Storage Configuration? The choices are SSD and HDD, and should be used appropriately.

      IDE mode should be banned from any mother board's BIOS that only uses SATA ports. Sure it's fine on a board with IDE ports, as long as it does not interfere with the SATA controller. Intel SATA controllers don't have the separate IDE controllers that some older AMD chipsets have (thank God) or any way of separating IDE from AHCI, its all of nothing for Intel.

      If the SATA Device Type is not the problem, I suspect those SATA ports might not working correctly. Currently, I'm using all the Intel SATA ports except port 0, and all is well. My M.2 setting is Auto. I have two SSDs in RAID 0 on Intel ports 4 and 5, been like that for months.

      When you say Windows did not recognize the drives on ports 4 and 5, but were recognized in the BIOS, was that just Windows Explorer? Did you start Disk Management? or Device Manager?

      If you can get your HDDs running on the ASMedia ports, great, use them, you aren't loosing any performance.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

        parsec,

        I don't know if you recall but I had SATA recognition problems with Windows 8.1 and the Z97 Fatal1y Killer MB/G3258/GSkill 2400-1.65V memory. As soon as I replaced the memory with 1600-1.35V memory the problem went away. Seems like I have a very similar issue?! I went and bought another Z97 Extreme6 MB and another 4790K. I'll put some GSkill 2400-165V in it and see if I have the same problem as the other Z97 Extreme6/4790K system is having. If so, I'll try the some 1600-1.35V memory and see if that has any effect. Just like the Fatal1y system it acts Windows is missing a driver or something since every body else (USB standalone backup boot programs) recognize the drives in all the SATA ports.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          Don't change the Intel SATA mode from AHCI!!!

          AHCI was originally invented to help HDDs achieve better performance, but fortunately helps SSDs perform better with a file system that was designed for HDDs.
          AFAIK, for SSDs, AHCI has no advantage over IDE because it has no effect when there is no magnetic head (and rotating plate). NVM is the optimized protocol for SSDs used in SATA-Express. If intel has updated its NCQ for SSDs and so its new AHCI is different from legacy conventional AHCI, you are right.

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          Mixing SATA HDDs and SSDs is not a problem, the SATA protocol is the same. Once the IO commands are in a drive, then it's the drives problem to get it right.
          All boards I have seen until now, had a single option for all SATA channels to select AHCI/IDE. For that, I suggested him to play with this option. If new boards have separate option for different channels to choose IDE/AHCI I appreciate if you make me aware.

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          I will ask you (Ken) if you are setting the SATA Device Type option for each drive listed in Storage Configuration? The choices are SSD and HDD, and should be used appropriately.
          Is there such per-channel option (Optimized NCQ for each drive)?

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          IDE mode should be banned from any mother board's BIOS that only uses SATA ports. Sure it's fine on a board with IDE ports, as long as it does not interfere with the SATA controller.
          For compatibility to older operating systems (windows xp) it is necessary to use IDE mode. AHCI has a performance gain over IDE but not too much, thus, compatibility is more important.

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          Intel SATA controllers don't have the separate IDE controllers that some older AMD chipsets have (thank God) or any way of separating IDE from AHCI, its all of nothing for Intel.
          Thank God for which? AMD or Intel?

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          If the SATA Device Type is not the problem, I suspect those SATA ports might not working correctly. Currently, I'm using all the Intel SATA ports except port 0, and all is well. My M.2 setting is Auto. I have two SSDs in RAID 0 on Intel ports 4 and 5, been like that for months.
          How?!
          According to manual, SATA Ports 4, 5, M2_2, and SATA_Express are shared, so only one of them can be used! As seen in Ken's first configuration, he was aware of that, so skipped port 4 and connected the last drive to port 5.
          If you discovered that the shared ports are not 4 and 5, this is the key answer for his problem :-) From his description, I suspected that shared ports should be rather 3 and 4!

          Originally posted by parsec View Post
          When you say Windows did not recognize the drives on ports 4 and 5, but were recognized in the BIOS, was that just Windows Explorer? Did you start Disk Management? or Device Manager?

          If you can get your HDDs running on the ASMedia ports, great, use them, you aren't loosing any performance.
          Last edited by bahram_alinezhad; 05-13-2015, 09:13 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

            Originally posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
            AFAIK, for SSDs, AHCI has no advantage over IDE because it has no effect when there is no magnetic head (and rotating plate). NVM is the optimized protocol for SSDs used in SATA-Express. If intel has updated its NCQ for SSDs and so its new AHCI is different from legacy conventional AHCI, you are right.
            A basic feature of AHCI is NCQ, Native Command Queuing, it has always been part of AHCI. Up to 32 IO requests are in memory that are available to a drive (HDD or SSD) without any additional IO requests sent to the file system. NCQ is the basis for many

            IDE does not have NCQ, so the file system sends one IO request to a drive at a time. When the drive completes the IO request, the file system then prepares and sends another. That is inefficient and is the main reason AHCI with NCQ is much faster. I assure you that an SSD used in IDE mode will not perform at the same level that it does in AHCI mode.

            AHCI allows HDDs to examine the IO requests in the AHCI queue, and sort them for optimal retrieval, meaning less head movement. SSDs are not affected by the limitations of the disk in HDDs.

            NCQ is the basis for reducing IO requests to the file system, and allowing a HDD to sort requests for minimal head movement. Without NCQ, AHCI is almost worthless, I can't imagine that an earlier version of AHCI did not have NCQ.

            NVMe is the new replacement for AHCI, which allows for multiple IO command queues (AHCI has one queue) and the queues have many more IO instructions (AHCI maximum is 32). The only NVMe drive available now is the Intel 750, which is a pure PCIe device, used in a PCIe slot. Samsung's NVMe variant of the SM951 has problems using the Windows 8 native NVMe driver, and cannot be purchased anywhere now.

            All standard SATA III SSDs cannot use NVMe, so NVMe is not a protocol for existing SSDs.

            Originally posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
            All boards I have seen until now, had a single option for all SATA channels to select AHCI/IDE. For that, I suggested him to play with this option. If new boards have separate option for different channels to choose IDE/AHCI I appreciate if you make me aware.

            Is there such per-channel option (Optimized NCQ for each drive)?
            Some AMD chipsets have multiple controls for IDE and SATA ports, or can run some SATA ports in IDE mode, and others in AHCI or RAID mode.

            Originally posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
            For compatibility to older operating systems (windows xp) it is necessary to use IDE mode. AHCI has a performance gain over IDE but not too much, thus, compatibility is more important.

            Thank God for which? AMD or Intel?
            Yes, compatibility with legacy OSes. The problem with that is in order to maintain compatibility, people use IDE mode when it is not necessary because they don't know better. Legacy compatibility also holds back the adoption of new capabilities. Intel adopted new sub-releases of the SATA III standard in their 8 and 9 series chipsets, which are then not compatible with some older drives, including some early SSDs. It must happen at some point.

            It is ironic that AHCI/NCQ helps SSDs perform better, when it was originally designed to increase HDD performance.

            I was saying thank God Intel does not have multiple modes (IDE and SATA) at the same time on their SATA ports, more chance of confusion.

            Originally posted by bahram_alinezhad View Post
            How?!
            According to manual, SATA Ports 4, 5, M2_2, and SATA_Express are shared, so only one of them can be used! As seen in Ken's first configuration, he was aware of that, so skipped port 4 and connected the last drive to port 5.
            If you discovered that the shared ports are not 4 and 5, this is the key answer for his problem :-) From his description, I suspected that shared ports should be rather 3 and 4!
            I agree, but when only one of them can be used, that means either both SATA3_4 and SATA3_5 can be used, or the M2_2 slot, or the SATA Express connection (SATA ports 4 and 5, plus the SATA Express connector.)

            Ken is not using the M2_2 slot, or using SATA Express. So both SATA ports 4 and 5 should be working.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

              Thank you for your notice and information sharing: parsec

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                Not to worry Bahram (I hope that is your name, sorry for my ignorance), I happen to be an SSD enthusiast, while others are gaming enthusiast and others like to over clock their processors as much as possible.

                I have studied this quite a bit and I think it is important because storage IO is still the slowest part of a PC, even with SSDs. What we really need is a new file system of some kind. AHCI is really a fix (IMO) that Intel and Seagate designed to overcome the limitations of existing PC file systems.

                My comments were not directed at you, I have been frustrated about the use of AHCI, and whenever I see it being dismissed as not useful, I start lecturing.

                It took so long for AHCI to become adopted as a standard by mother board manufactures, the default SATA mode was IDE until only a few years ago. Of course that was related to the use of versions of Windows that did not support AHCI, Windows 7 was really the first Microsoft product that did.

                I have the same board as Ken429 does, so I am very familiar with it, and the way the SATA and M.2 ports work.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                  While you two were having your heated debate on the merits of AHCI versus IDE my problems got more convoluted!

                  I set up my second Z97 Extreme6/4790K system and had even more issues with SATA ports! I set up the system with a Cloned version of Windows from the first Z97 Extreme6/4790K system. Both systems are using a Sandisk Extreme Pro 240GB SSD and have two sticks of GSkill Z 2400-10 1.65V memory installed. After getting Windows to settle down, get activated, etc. I noticed that the MB came with BIOS 1.40 so I promptly updated to the latest BIOS 2.10 using the BIOS Instant Flash. All went well, I loaded the BIOS defaults and Windows 8.1 seemed to be OK.

                  I then loaded up the system with 5 hard drives connected to the Intel ports 1,2,3,4,5. However, the only drive that Windows would recognize was Port 0 and the DVD burner that was installed on one of the ASMedia ports. Just like the problem I had with the G3258 system. So, I switched the memory to the Mushkin 1600-9 1.35V thinking I had the solution! Wrong, nothing changed, apparently the 4790K can handle the faster memory with no issues.

                  Next I swapped the drives on Port 0 and Port 2 and rebooted. This time Windows recognized two drives!

                  At that point I gave up for the night and pulled all the hard drives.

                  Next morning I installed a couple of SSD's in Port 1 and 2 cleared CMOS, loaded the BIOS defaults and Windows recognized all three drives. Then I connected a hard drive to Port 3 rebooted and was very discouraged when Windows did not recognize the new drive. Moved the drive to Port 5 rebooted and again Windows did not recognize the drive.

                  Reloaded the BIOS defaults and rebooted and Windows DID recognize the drive on Port 5.

                  Moved the hard drive to Port 4 rebooted and Windows DID NOT recognize the drive on Port 4!

                  Reloaded the BIOS defaults rebooted and Windows DID recognize the drive on Port 4!!

                  While all this is going on the BIOS always recognized all the drives on all the ports. Since I seem to be the only person having this problem on multiple systems I must have some piece of software running that is screwing up Windows 8.1 on a Z97 based system. I have pretty much the same stuff running on several other Z77/W8.1 systems on do not have any SATA issues with them.

                  Just to add to my frustration, I tried to update the BIOS from 1.70 to 2.10 on the first Z97 Extreme6 system using the BIOS Instant Flash and it would not connect to the internet?! The Clear CMOS/Load BIOS defaults routine had no effect on this system. Windows would still not recognize a drive on Port 3 or 4. Why in the world did I get so committed to ASRock Z97 MB's?
                  Last edited by Ken429; 05-14-2015, 06:00 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                    parsec,

                    My "Extreme6 System 2" has settled into a consistent pattern. When I add a drive to one of the Intel SATA Ports it is not recognized. When I go into the BIOS and Load UEFI Defaults Windows recognizes the new drive. I have been able to get all the Intel SATA Ports working using this approach. I have been unable to figure out what piece of software I'm using that causes W8.1/Z97 to run amok. One thing I wanted to try was using Raid Mode setting versus AHCI Mode to see if maybe whoever or whatever is screwing with the W8.1 behavior might not effect the Raid drivers. I know you said in a previous post that you are using Raid Mode on your Extreme6 MB. Is the best way to switch still to go into the Registry and make the changes same as was the W7 approach?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                      Cancel my Raid Request. I figured it out for W8. Msconfig>Safe Boot, Turn on Raid in BIOS, Reboot W8 and use Msconfig to turn off Safe Boot. After all that, I learned that the Raid driver did not make any difference W8 still would not recognize a "new" formatted drive. However, I did learn that W8 did recognize the new drive when it was running in Safe Mode! So I guess that means that one of the programs that I use on all my system must not like Z97 Chips!? Short of uninstalling everything any ideas on how to find the bad guy?

                      Looks like it is EaseUS ToDo Backup service is getting me. As soon as I Disable the EaseUS Agent Service using MSConfig the problem goes away! It was a little hard to find because once W8.1 recognizes a drive it does not forget. So I had to keep switching ports so that W8.1 would not recognize it. Luckily the EaseUS Service is the first non-Microsoft service so it was close to the top of the MSConfig Services list.
                      Last edited by Ken429; 05-16-2015, 11:08 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                        Interesting, I used EasyUS once a while ago, but don't recall any drive recognition problems. Glad you learned that was the problem, which I hope stays fixed. Note how your frustration turned into contempt for Z97, but you were patient before you finally broke down. A lesson for us in that, software can breaks thing too, it's not always faulty hardware. Plus all the theories we come up with, creating issues that don't exist.

                        I've had one SSD that would not be recognized in the UEFI but was fine in Win 8, an Intel 530. Even better, it was the OS drive and booted fine every time.

                        My procedure for adding new drives:

                        Clear the CMOS/UEFI/BIOS before starting the PC after any change in drives, whether adding, removing, or moving to different SATA ports. Use the UEFI profiles feature to restore your settings, takes a few clicks to save or restore.

                        It might take a restart or two for a drive to be recognized in the UEFI or Windows. One boot with a new or already formatted drive is not enough with the new Intel SATA chipsets, or possibly the SATA POST procedure of the UEFI. Particularly important when enabling Fast Boot in the UEFI.

                        Check and set the SATA Device Type in the drive details in Storage Configuration, either SSD or HDD. I wish I knew what this actually does, all I know is it seems to make a difference.

                        Don't trust SATA data cables. Fortunately they are cheap, I have a collection of bad and questionable examples. I wish someone made a high quality SATA data cable, which really means the connectors. When they start to feel loose in the SATA ports, out with them!

                        Don't forget that new, unformatted and uninitialized drives will not be recognized by Windows Explorer. If a drive is not seen after installation in Windows, start Disk Management and see what happens.

                        Drives over 2.2TB in size must be formatted as GPT for all the capacity to be recognized.

                        New drives are more questionable in their operation than older ones. If the storage sub-system is acting strange, don't forget which drive was the last one added to the system.

                        If anyone has a tip of their own to add, please do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                          I am confused! Is this software (EaseUS) part of windows 8 or separate? I remember somewhere Ken emphasized that he installed a fresh windows but got same results!

                          Recognition or not recognition of a drive in windows depends on recognition of its controller; So if a drive is detected in bios, and the attached controller is properly installed in windows, the drive should be detected (not necessarily in explorer).
                          Add-on software can interfere the recognition process when they do not communicate with system drivers, rather, they communicate directly with ports and use their own internal drivers.

                          Ken's problem was of type I had never encounter before! It is a bad sign of annoying bugs in newer UEFI bioses which are expected to be smarter and more powerful treating such old categories: auto detection of hard drives!!

                          Another tip to parsec ones is Testing the system with a startup disk and comparing the results with windows. This startup disk can be a DOS disk which depends only on bios procedures and shows whatever bios detected (this was also the windows 9x behavior), can be a linux live cd, or can be one of many startup, diagnostics or recover utilities like UBCD and Acronis Partition Recovery. Such an action distinguishes hardware from software problem and the user finds more suitable forum or more suitable title to discuss.
                          Last edited by bahram_alinezhad; 05-16-2015, 03:55 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                            EaseUs backup is a third party program, not part of Windows.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Z97 Extreme6 Sata3_3 and Sata3_4 problems

                              Just a follow up on the EaseUS ToDo Home Backup issue.

                              For starters the problem is: When a new drive or a drive is changed to a different Intel SATA Port the drive will not be recognized by W8.1 if the EaseUS Agent Services is service is enabled. To get W8.1 to recognize the drive the EaseUS Agent Services must be Disabled via MSConfig.exe. After W8.1 reboots and recognizes the SATA Port changes EaseUS Agent Service can be Enable and W8.1 will be OK until the next time Intel SATA Port changes are made. While all this is going on the BIOS always recognizes all the drives on the Intel SATA Ports. The ASMedia SATA Ports are not affected. The problem is 100% repeatable on two different ASRock Z97 Extreme6/4790K systems.

                              After spending almost two hours working with the EaseUS technical support people nothing was resolved! I'm not sure they even understood the problem even thought they were connected and reconnected several times to my machine and saw the issue first hand. There is definitely a language/communication barrier. Hopefully, I won't run into any other issues with this software because my confidence level in their ability to support the product in the USA is at a very low level even though they are responsive and act like they want to help. It's kind of a shame since the product does a lot of things very well and is easy to use.
                              Last edited by Ken429; 05-22-2015, 06:47 AM.

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